Dating someone who is already in a committed relationship

So, after my post the other day talking about how a poly relationship can be fair to someone coming into an already-established relationship, I sent out an email to my local poly list to ask their thoughts on it all.  Here's a particularly thoughtful response I got from someone, whose permission I've received to post portions of the response here.  Nothing like a little mental nutrition to get the thoughts rolling...

Special thanks to B for sharing this with me and the others on the list.

I've been there, in different ways.

The key to "meeting the needs" of the third (or really any) person is
that it depends on what the needs are. Not everyone is in a place
where they want to get married, have a long term committed
relationship, or have short term relations, or or or...

So what needs are being talked about to begin with? In the non-poly
world, the assumption is that you have a monogamous relationship and
that (eventually) one of these results in marriage. Underneath that
is a common belief that relationships that aren't aimed towards
marriage are pointless or weird or a waste of time (this is mainly a
southern thing, I didn't get as much of this in DC).

And this is a mistake that leads to a lot of strife out there: people
assume an all-fitting box that is "a relationship" when really all
people and all relationships are different and everyone needs
different things, no matter how subtle the differences are.

By pretending everyone needs the same thing or things, there are LOTS
of problems in 'typical' relationships.

So, have I been the 'third party' and gotten my needs met? yes.

The advice I would give is the same as for anyone dating anyone in any
circumstance: know theyself, and understand the person you want to be
in a relationship as well.

What do they want to give, open to give, like to give? What do you
have to give? What needs does everyone have? Does it fit?

If the answer is no then the relationship will have issues. If the
answer is yes the relationship will work until those needs change. I
was in an open relationship for a while that worked until the girl I
was seeing became clear that what she needed was something more
permanent (marriage). We had long ago discussed that I wasn't in a
place where I wanted to get married (to anyone). We broke up (but
kept seeing each other) until she found someone who fit her needs
including the new one. Then we stopped seeing each other (the other
person wasn't poly). We DID remain friends and eventually her (now)
husband realized that I was cool and not some jealous boyfriend guy.
I was happy for her because I wanted her to be happy, and our needs
and ability to give no longer matched up. This was just fine by me.

The only way any relationship works (no matter the number of people
involved) is through good communication. The more people, the more
communication usually needed. And you can only communicate your needs
if you know them. Most people actually don't. And so you have to
work hard at knowing yourself and harder at reading people and their
needs and most of all learn the skills to deal with less than perfect
communications and the misunderstandings that ensue.

There are a lot more "open relationship" people than people who
directly identify as "poly". That's a whole different can of worms
really. Many times when people hear poly they think "open
relationship" and that causes some misunderstandings from the start.

I really appreciated these comments, particularly the part about most people not really knowing what they want in the first place.  I know that I have a wide spectrum of things that would fit the definition of "what I want" in a relationship, because my needs are broad enough in some ways to allow for multiple expressions of love to meet them.  But I do see quite a few people who haven't given a lot of thought to or clarified for themselves what their needs are, so they either A) adopt a set of socially and culturally normative "needs" as their own without much reflection to whether or not it's a good match for them at any given time in their lives, or B) decide that socially and culturally normative "needs" are bogus and blow them off without honestly reflecting on what a set of replacement "needs" that might fill that void in a positive way would look like.

This, I believe, is at least partially the reason for many of the "OMG POLYAMORY that is so WEEEEEEIIIIRRRRRDDD" responses I sometimes get, even from people who cheat on their partners regularly and have lovers on the side.  I've gotten that reaction from people who would otherwise be cool with dating a married person as long as it were done in secret (as if that is somehow a more acceptable way of going about it).

 I remember what went through my mind the first time someone I knew came out to me as polyamorous and explained it as a lifestyle.  My thoughts were something along this line: "HO-LEE CRAP, that is some weird stuff.  More power to ya if it's working for you, but I can't imagine ever doing that myself."  Luckily, the first person who ever mentioned polyamory to me was a gay man who was interested in having a purely intellectual discussion with me about it (and not someone who was hitting on me, which might have been even harder for me to wrap my head around).  Without the pressure of an impending potential relationship, I was able to go home, think about it, chat about it with my partner, and within a year we were (at least mentally) on board with it.  About the time we were ready to give it a shot, we ended up moving to a very, VERY conservative town and nothing came of it for years (until we relocated again, this time to a very progressive area).  But I think my initial response to hearing about poly wasn't MY response-- it was a socially conditioned response that I had accepted as a norm without any reflection.  A little reflection later, and here we are, moving into poly ourselves.

At any rate, I appreciate the first-hand reflection and advice from someone who has been a "tertiary" partner to someone already in a committed relationship.

Interestingly, my request for experiences from those in a tertiary relationship to share their thoughts with me has led to an off-list email and continuing discussion from and with someone who is currently in a relationship with a person in a committed relationship, who had been quietly going through her own anxieties about whether or not the other partner could truly care about her experience, feelings, and needs.  What a refreshing connection to make and conversation to have, even if it isn't MY metamour, and I'm not hers.  The universe has truly blessed me with good people at the right times.  I have not reason to doubt that would continue.

On Metamours

So, the last few days I've been thinking about metamours-- what it means to be a metamour, what it is to have a metamour, and what it is to choose a metamour for your partner (via choosing a romantic partner for yourself).

A few interesting things I came across:

From Galen Askton (and modified somewhat based on a suggestion in the original blog post comments):

Level 1: Acceptance. You are at least aware of the other person. You know his/her name. You have at least some sense of what your partner sees in this other person. You might have met once or twice.

Level 2: Acquaintance. You hang out now and then (maybe once a month) and have talked somewhat with your metamour. You have certain things in common. You have a general trust and you understand what your partner sees in this person.

Level 3: Friendship. You hang out a lot (a few times a week) and have talked extensively. You consider the metamour to be a good friend.

Level 4: Integration. You are extremely close with and emotionally intimate with your metamour. You are part of a triad or other tight intimate network. You share almost everything with this 3rd person. The metamour has become part of the family in many ways.

Level 5: Meta-"morphosis".  Your metamour has become your own lover, and is no longer technically your metamour.

To be sure, the connections between any two metamours is complex and certainly not "digital" like this. Still, I think these terms can help.

Also, I would stress that this is not meant to suggest that any level is somehow more moral or better than any other. For example, if you have a good friendship with a metamour but have no romantic interest in him/her, it doesn't make sense to think this is somehow a failing. On the other hand, it's my own opinion that only reaching the "acceptance" level can be dangerous. It could be hard to trust a metamour's intentions or otherwise be sympathetic to his/her perspective.

As for me, I have to say that I think I could do levels 2 and 3 alright, but that levels 4 and 5 appeal to me the most.  Having a metamour who was a close, intimate friend or a NSSO (non-sexual significant other) would be emotionally fulfilling and wonderful for me, even if the metamour never became my own lover.

"Polyfulcrum" at Journals of a Polyamorous Triad writes about Breaking Up with a Metamour:

The past several years have seen several iterations of connection between myself and my partner's partner. We've been friends, lovers, Domme/sub, and care about the same person. One thing that has remained pretty constant has been that I've seen her as family, which isn't something I extend easily or often to anyone...

While we don't have a direct relationship with each other at this time, there is a sense of loss around this for me. I guess I am pretty attached to the ideal of sharing a bond with the people I have partners in common with, at least with one that is so close to the inner workings of our lives. She's also someone that I care for and respect, although we differ in many ways.

What does this look like? As far as practical stuff, not much. It's letting go of that sense of openness, of concern, the attempts to bring someone closer, and honor that they are perfectly content to be further away, and not involved in the "friends and family"model of poly by choice....

This, for me, seems like it would be a very hard place in which to find yourself.  What if I have to "break up" with the metamour over personal differences in lifestyle, approach, or expectation, knowing that my partner would continue to be partners and lovers with this person.  Ouch.  Complicated.


And then this gem of an expression of gratitude for a metamour, from said metamour's partner's other partner:

Today is an awesome day!

Today is the one year anniversary between my metamour (h/t for the term to Miss Polyamory for the term.) and my partner.

It’s been one full year today since my partner met this man at her best friend’s wedding and fooled around. From these inauspicious beginnings came a deep and sudden feeling of mutual love and respect that has blossomed into a wonderful supportive relationship that has helped my partner immeasurably.

My metamour helped clear away cobwebs that had festered for years. He proved to her that she could function sexually with an actual sexual partner, he helped prevent her collapse with sheer NRE when I flew halfway around the world to get my master’s for two years in denmark. He helped her work through deep seated issues stemming from rapists and abusers in her past. He helped her work through deep-seated issues with her abusive and controlling alcoholic family.

In many ways, he has been a better partner than I have, though I hardly hold it against him. We both care deeply for my partner and we have both in our ways helped her become someone she can love at least half as much as we have loved her.

The amount she has grown with his help and the positive impact in her life can never be overstated and to that end, I encourage him to remain in her life for many years more with hers and my blessing. You are a good man, my metamour and I eagerly look forward to the day I have my partner’s permission to point you out by name.

Now stop worrying about “overstepping boundaries” with me and enjoy yourself with her. I have never once been jealous or suspicious and I would not interfere with the two of you for all the money in the world. The joy you have brought into the life of the one I love has been critical and overly welcome. You are truly family and you have earned trust and respect by the score.

Happy anniversary metamour, you’ve well earned it.

*Swoon.*  The hopeless romantic in me reads this and my heart swells from the thought that I might one day have someone in my partner's life who is such a blessing to him, or someone in my life about whom my partner could feel this appreciative.


.....

I'm not really sure how all of this is going to play out as things progress in our poly journey.  In the ideal, I would love to have a metamour who is special to me, and to whom I am also a special person.  I can envision situations how that might work.  Of the people my partner has had any level of connection with since we began our poly journey (physical, emotional, romantic), each of the three has been different.  One is a close friend I adore.  One is someone he met on OKC and is talking with via messages now, who has already chatted with me some online to feel me out and make sure I'm cool with it.  And the third is someone from waaaaayyyyy back when, to whom we are both extremely close, who talks to me as much as he does to my partner, and already ends phone calls to me with "I love you."  So far, the universe is honoring my needs. And it's not that I think that once my partner is in a close relationship with someone that I should have that much of a say over how their relationship progresses (though I can continue to define my own relationship to the metamour), but we have decided that for now, each of us does get a pretty big say in the beginning of any relationships based on our level of emotional security with the potential metamour in question.

So universe, if you're listening, here's my request...  Even as I consider my own hopes for special loves to come into my life, please let someone special come into my sweet partner's life.  Let them be a safe enough person that I will not worry about my partner's heart once he shares a part of it with them.  Let them see in him the same beautiful things that I do and more-- a sense of humor and purpose, a genuine love for humanity, a kindness and compassion that exceeds what is typical of people in our culture, and a gentleness that melts away my every anger, anxiety, and fear.  Let me be someone who is trustworthy to them, and let them trust me enough to know that even as I love him, I also love them loving him.  Let them be a friend to me, and let us be special people in each others' lives, because what a special bond it would be to share love for the same person.  This or something better...  <3

The future is more fluid than you think...

So, let me get this out there right from the start.  Some "polyamorous" people are cruisers, looking for someone to "play," not interested in even the possibility of longer-term relationship, and possibly not even very nice people.  As I've said before, everyone defines it a little differently, which leads to all sorts of outcomes and ways of being poly, some of which may not reflect kindly on those of us who are poly and good people.

I recently told a friend (who knows I'm poly but isn't necessarily supportive of the idea) that I was interested in someone that I may or may not end up dating.  My friend asked me what I thought about it.  I said I thought it might be great.  She then said, "Well, I wonder what she thinks about it."  She wasn't unkind, but her tone clearly indicated that the only way a potential partner to a previously partnered poly person could feel (holy alliteration, batman!) is somehow deprived or mistreated.


This take on poly offends me a bit, and leaves me shaking my head.  It's like people assume that because you're poly, it's just like cheating, but with permission.  There's an assumption that the additional partner's needs could never be met, that they would always not matter enough to you, that it wouldn't be like "real" love.  There's the assumption that the primary partner is the "real" partner, and that any other partners would just be an accessory, deprived, not treated fairly, or whatever.  


The truth is, as much as my husband and I have an idea in our mind of how polyamory might play out, there's a lot of flexibility in that vision based on the specific needs of any people that either of us might date.  If one of us ends up dating someone who isn't looking for a long-term, live-in thing, that's going to shape how it turns out.  If one of us ends up dating someone who dreams of one day having that, THAT will shape out it all turns out and what we're open to.  If one of us dates someone who has no interest in dating the other, that changes the game, just as it does if one of us dates someone who eventually wants to date the other.  It's fluid, see?  It's open to possibility, as all good potentials are.


So, to give you some kind of idea what goes on in the minds of a poly couple (who talk about everything, by the way) with regard to how anyone we end up dating would be treated, read on...


WOULD WE DATE SOMEONE WHO WANTED TO DATE US BOTH?
Yes.  However, that seems like an awfully complicated setup to start out with out of the gate.  We would be open to the possibility, of course, but it seems more likely that someone would have an initial attraction to one of us, and that we'd allow that relationship to progress on it's on, with any additional attractions to the other one of us being allowed to grow organically, if at all.  Besides, having a metamour can be fun, in and of itself.

WOULD ONE DATE SOMEONE WHO HAD NO INTEREST IN DATING THE OTHER?
Yes.  If someone's orientation (gay or straight, for example) or just plain ol' compatibility or attraction led to only being interested in one of us, forever, no exceptions, that would be fine as well, PROVIDED the potential partner honored and respected the pre-existing relationship and pre-existing partner.  I can't imagine a scenario in which we'd want to date someone who wasn't already decent friends with our primary partner.  Ideally, for me anyway, I'd want whoever was dating my husband to feel at least a little bit of a connection with me, even if it is more of a close friend or sister-like connection.  At a minimum, I want to know I can trust them to not go all cowboy and try to destroy my marriage.  (I just read that paragraph out loud to my husband, and he agrees.)  If you want to date one of us, a good first step as you are becoming or after becoming friends with the one you're interested in would be to become good friends with the other.  If you find my partner completely uninteresting or not your friendship-type, our relationship probably wouldn't work out anyway.

That last fact out of the way, I'm going to just assume it's clear in any future questions that we're open to either one or both of us dating someone, even if the wording says "we."


WOULD YOU DATE SOMEONE WHO HAD NO INTEREST IN LIVING IN A THREE- (OR MORE) ADULT HOUSEHOLD, EVER?
Yes.  Living together is not a requirement for dating, friendship, love, or more.  It all just depends on the person.  But yes, we can envision a scenario in which we could have long-term relationships with someone we knew would never live with us.

WOULD YOU DATE SOMEONE YOU KNEW WOULD, DOWN THE LINE, ONLY BE HAPPY LIVING TOGETHER?
Yes.  If someone becomes a true, loving, soul-mate kind of partner to one or both of us, we are open to the idea of living together in a multi-adult household.  Yes, we have kids.  And yes, if we truly loved someone and it was the right time, we'd take on the challenge of explaining poly to our children and working through the challenges of a multi-adult household, as well as facing any social stuff that came up because of it.

DO YOU TALK TO EACH OTHER ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIPS AND DATING?
Yes.  You have to keep in mind that we are each others' confidantes.  Thus far, we talk to each other about how we feel about people we may or may not be attracted to, things that happen and are said with those people, and more.  It isn't so much in a gossip-y way or to violate trust, but because we are in the habit of being completely honest with each other.  That said, I'm having to get myself comfortable with the fact that if my husband ends up in a relationship with someone else, he will probably eventually end up with another confidante, who will know the kinds of private things about my life I only share with him.  It's a leap of trust, you know?  I have to trust that my partner has chosen someone to be in relationship with who is trustworthy in every way, and then I have to let it go.  So yeah, I know how it might be a little weird to know that someone else has access to your love's intimate thoughts, in large part because it's an idea I'm also working on for myself.

DO YOU GET JEALOUS OF YOUR PARTNER HAVING OTHER ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS/INTERACTIONS?
Yes.  Sometimes, it's really more of envy, if I'm being honest.  If one of us has a potential romantic attraction coming over the horizon and the other doesn't at the moment, it's more likely that we might be experiencing envy ("How come HE has someone into him and I don't?") than jealousy ("I don't like him having someone other than me.").  But we do sometimes experience jealousy.  And it isn't that we ignore it, but rather that it's a feeling we work through until we have some sense of resolution.  We talk about it, love each other through it, and keep reminding each other of how special our relationship is.

Also, we have both, at least a few times, experienced what they call "compersion."  That just means that seeing your partner enjoy someone else's company, happy and finding joy in a second (or third) relationship, brings YOU joy because you love them so much and want happiness for them.  I have experienced what I could truly call compersion more than a couple of times so far, and we aren't even that far into our poly journey yet.  I've also experienced envy.  I find that I feel a bit of jealousy when I think of my husband with some other unknown person, but have not yet felt jealousy when it has been a case of "[name], who I know and is safe to me, is into my husband" or "my husband has a thing for [name], who I know and trust."  If one of us has ever called you a "safe" person or said we trust you, you're golden, if you're ever interested in asking the other out on a date.

ASK!
I guess the most obvious thing to say is that if someone who is poly expresses an interest in you, or you think that you might be interested in someone who is poly, but you aren't sure if they would be open to X, Y, or Z that would meet your needs now or at some point in the future, just ask!  There's nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know that I want to feel like I'm always second place.  How would you deal with that?" Or, "How do you and your partner deal with jealousy?  I'm scared of being thrown out on my ass at his/her whim."  Be upfront.  Don't assume you know what the answer is.  And if you might be interested but need some time to process this whole poly idea, say that, too.  One of the coolest things I've discovered thus far about the poly people I know is how receptive to open communication they are.  Boundaries are negotiated, respected, and revised as needed.  Goals are discussed.  Attractions are openly expressed, but not necessarily assumed to be forever lovefests, and are still allowed to progress on their own, in their own time.  Discussing a potential future does not secure you into having one, but can help put minds at ease in the mean time.  Be honest.  Be upfront.  And be ready for what could turn out to be a whole lot of love, joy, and fulfillment.

.....

Honestly, I am curious about hearing from those poly folk who have been in a relationship with one or both of an already-established couple, and what that was like for you.  I'm not particularly interested in those who felt they were in a "unicorn" setup, or had someone who was unfair to them.  But if you were in a relationship with one or both people who were either married, or already in a committed relationship, how did it work?  What was that like for you?  How did you and the others make sure your needs were met?  What tips would you offer someone who was interested in someone who is poly and in a committed relationship, but not sure how they felt about the idea?  Feel free to send me a message via facebook at: http://www.facebook.com/omnipoly (Please note that I do not post via that account, ever.  It's just a nice way to reach me if you want to).  Maybe a guest post is in order!  :-)